Forum:Achievements
Remove 'em? 15:29, June 7, 2011 (UTC) Votes Support # 15:29, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #'Strong support': Just a source of bad edits. 16:41, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #--Zsoltitakacs 18:10, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #I've made my case for their removal before, what I said then still holds strong now. NeonSpotlight 20:08, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #'Support': I agree that the badges need to be removed. What's the point of having the Champion, Item, and Summoner badges if the categories that are fixed doesn't give the badges anymore. I personally believe that the new category set ups are the best that has ever been. If this request fails, I hope that the three badge series I've mentioned are removed someday as they serve no purpose for this wiki anymore without its parent categories. 01:26, June 8, 2011 (UTC) Neutral #Asperon Thorn 20:32, June 7, 2011 (UTC) I don't think it makes a difference one way or another. I think we get a lot of bad edits because of them, but we have senior members of this Wikia that make arbitrary decisions that are just plain bad as well and are far more prolific with them. I do 'know that we probably wouldn't have a lot of the people that contribute regularly without them first being attracted by the acheivements. #I don't see the point of having the achievements if the Champions, Items, Summoner categoreis aren't added back. As it would be unfair for new users to not be able to obtain those achievements. That said, I like achievements and I think they attract edits, more good ones than bad ones. But again, if they remain the above categories should be added back, even if they are hidden. 01:44, June 8, 2011 (UTC) #I dont really care i edit to make this wiki better. --LoLisNumbaWan 01:59, June 9, 2011 (UTC) #We have badges? O.o On a more serious note, could not care less. Deshiba 11:23, June 10, 2011 (UTC) #Mm16365 11:35, June 10, 2011 (UTC) :| Oppose #--Sagee Prime "You Calm Down the Thunder and I'll Reap the Whirlwind" 15:36, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #--D3Reap3R 17:27, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #i love collecting achievements - But supporters are wrong. They lead to some bad edits, but overall more edits, and overall more good edits. It gets people involved, and is the main reason why this wiki is where it is today. 18:00, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #I am not here for the achievements, but I have noticed that it motivates certain users to improve the wiki by editing. I think that the achievements draw attention to users to edit more often. I don't care about getting any more at this point, but I wouldn't want them to be removed either. I have also noticed that many users go to the ladder in order to find people to ask questions to. When I join another wiki, I always go to the top people in the ladder for questions, as they have a higher amount of edits/experience. 18:26, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #I believe badges help people on the Wiki not only edit more, but also look for different "edit styles" (for instance, I've never been really interested in Items or Summoner pages, but I've tried to learn more about them just so my profile doesn't look lame). I'm highly in favor of recognition of the senior members who aren't admins etc. by simple badges, and if someone spams just to get his, it's not discouraging for me to try my best to get them. So no, don't remove badges. --Bachoru 18:34, June 7, 2011 (UTC) #- 'KazMx (Message me! ) 01:13, June 8, 2011 (UTC) #I'm relatively new but only started really editing the wiki when I saw the achievements. Though, I do beleive most of my edits are relevant, at least. The badges serve as an incentive and it's a way to hook people in. Sure, you'll get a lot of bad seeds chasing after them, but once they reach the level of more difficult badges, they will just give up and go away. What does need to be done is fix the badges so they are more relevant (such as the items and summoner badges now). Having a very limited way of earning these forces people to do bad edits just to grab them. Lord Kuato 01:56, June 9, 2011 (UTC) # I am going to have to oppose as well. While yes it may cause some headache due to bad and useless edits (e.g. certain active user who abused the 'add a picture' badge :-P), it also gives a sort of motivation for users to continue to contribute and as a whole help this wikia to get better. They were the inital reason that I actually created an account instead of just staying as an anon. Why are we trying to fix stuff that aint broken? Texas Snyper 05:02, June 17, 2011 (UTC) Comments *It is not as serious problem as some would like to think it is. There are only 50 registered members that have more contributions that I do. Why is that number significant? It's small, and I don't really try to contribute. Which means, at most, there are 50 people farming achievements. Since most of the people that voted are in that 50 we would have to assume that there are < 50 people farming achievements. So what? Asperon Thorn 20:34, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *I don't think they should be removed but I think achievement whoring should be frowned upon. Achievements are a testament to what you have accomplished ad shouldn't be the result of unnecessary spam edits. Sagee Prime "You Calm Down the Thunder and I'll Reap the Whirlwind" 15:38, June 7, 2011 (UTC) **I agree with Sagee. Removing them would remove a valuable mean of enthusiasm a player could get. Striving for something is an impressive way of getting fun out of something! I agree that whoring is a bit at the limit though. D3Reap3R 17:31, June 7, 2011 (UTC) **Yep, coz making "accomplishments" that someone else has to revert is something we really need to encourage.. 18:20, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ***I don't think removing achievements will change that Zelga. Sagee Prime "You Calm Down the Thunder and I'll Reap the Whirlwind" 18:25, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ****Well vandalism/bad edits will obviously never cease to exist (unfortunately :P), but people will stop adding random categories to pages just because the category badges are semi-impossible to get in a normal way. Images badge are the same. I could go on, but I think my opinion is clear, as it is the outcome of this poll (see my talk page). 18:30, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *****I could maybe see reworking so that such extreme measures aren't needed to get them but there is no need to remove achievements. Sagee Prime "You Calm Down the Thunder and I'll Reap the Whirlwind" 18:33, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ******I can see some badge working (#edits, #days in a row), but all the others ? You can even see people writing a blog post admitting "This is just to get a badge, I have nothing to say". 18:36, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *"I have also noticed that many users go to the ladder in order to find people to ask questions to." (quoted from Tech above ). And this is why badges are detrimental. That ladder doesn't represent anything meaningful; still new users will use it if they have a problem. They don't go on an admin/crat talk page to ask their questions, they go ask to the random guy that farmed more achievements. If you don't see anything wrong in this, I sincerely have nothing more to say to you. 20:03, June 7, 2011 (UTC) **I am not surprised that you would twist my words, yet again. But I didn't "farm" my achievements. I don't even care that I got them. I don't understand that you don't like the badges so much, yet you are putting so much time and effort to talk about them. If you don't like them, then ignore them. I said what you quoted (and twisted) because I always go to the people on the top of the ladder to fond out information on other wikis, not because they are rank 1, etc. "If you don't see anything wrong in this, I sincerely have nothing more to say to you.", really? You are going to hold a grudge on people that don't agree with everything you do/say, that is very sad and immature. 20:09, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ***"They don't go on an admin/crat talk page to ask their questions, they go ask to the random guy that farmed more achievements" Who said that was directed at you Tech =_= NeonSpotlight 20:12, June 7, 2011 (UTC)\ ****I am the closest to being a random guy that is highest on the dumb ladder, so I don't know who else it would be directed to. 20:20, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *****Sigh, I'm not Zelga, however, I see what he says as something that counts on all wikis, not just ours. He wasn't directing that at anyone in particular. NeonSpotlight 20:23, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ******I see what you mean but it is a coincidence that he mentioned what he did while quoting me and right after my comment. 20:32, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *** The simple fact that you feel that was directed to you simply means you have a guilty conscience. You can go around here and say that I twisted "yet again" your words how much you want, the quote is literally taken from what you said. You just told us that you and others use that ladder to search for people when you need help on other wikis. Whoever is the first in that ladder really doesn't matter, it's the concept that is wrong. And it's IMPOSSIBLE for me to ignore this, because I am the one that has to revert the mess created by the random internet guy that comes here just because getting a badge is the only thing he cares about in the world. And you keep repeating that I'm sad and immature (3rd time already).. if that's all the argumentation you have to offer, you can even stop replying to my posts. 20:44, June 7, 2011 (UTC) **** Why is this fingerpointing even part of the discussion? It was common knowledge that TW started here by farming achievements. He admitted it and posted it in his profile. However he is not STILL farming achievements, in fact he works very had to make very useful contributions and formatting. Which is an argument for keeping them around. Asperon Thorn 21:09, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *****Agree with Asperon. We don't need to argue in a forum that has nothing to do with personal issues. I am done swinging the hate swing back and forth. 21:21, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ******... So, can I have a proper reply to the issues I exposed or are you too busy defending yourself from non-existent attacks ? 21:33, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *******Seems fair enough. If they don't ask a crat/admin for help because of the ladder, then I don't really see a problem with it since we are all here to help users and welcome them to the wiki. 21:36, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ********I'm not sure what type of Drama you're trying to push here Zelga, but it's inappropriate. I don't care which of you two stop this conversation first, but right now you are just trolling each other and frankly it's retarded and not appropriate for people with color in their tags. Asperon Thorn 21:41, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *********I'm not arguing anymore. I already said I was done in an earlier comment. I just replied to his post before this conversation as his request. 21:42, June 7, 2011 (UTC) *********I really don't understand what what you want from me here.. I asked for him to reply, since he dodged the questions the first time. You consider that inappropriate ? Trolling even ? Mbah.. 18:23, June 8, 2011 (UTC) *ok first off I don't see anyone going to the random wikia guy with tons of achievements unless that person is some type of moderator or admin. If that was the case then I'm sure Luxury would have quite a few on his talk page and a few of the other high contributors. People go to the guys with the cool colors in their names+high ranking on the achievement ladder. Also the achievement ladder also allows you to observe people who contirbute allot to see whether or not their contributions are legit or they are pulling some stupid crap like trivia here trivia here trivia there and more trivia, etc when it is all just unrelated material like someone saying they are related to some one by there uncles cousins sisters husbands brothers daughter (pretty rediculous huh). Fact of the matter is the achievement ladder and system may contribute to bad edits and unessasary or wrong information but it also allows you to see who the quality editors are and distribute what ever power them they can use to be of more help around the wikia. How long do you think it would have taken for you guys to notice my contributions if not for the achievements because I would not be asking for them. I only accepted the offer because I was noticed and given the opportunity.Sagee Prime "You Calm Down the Thunder and I'll Reap the Whirlwind" 22:51, June 7, 2011 (UTC) **Most people don't know/recognize you because of some silly badges, they recognize you for all the work you've put into pages like Nidalee's (where I found you). NeonSpotlight 22:57, June 7, 2011 (UTC) ***I completely agree! 23:04, June 7, 2011 (UTC) **I met you on chat, no idea what you position on "The Ladder" is since I never look at it. 18:23, June 8, 2011 (UTC) *Either way I see no benefit in removing them over keeping them but I know you guys changed the categories so if there would have to be adjustments to the new categories for badges so be it. Some of the reason s for getting rid of them seem like general complaint of problems that have no specific correlation to achievements alone but more to edits of all kinds. Sagee Prime "You Calm Down the Thunder and I'll Reap the Whirlwind" 13:19, June 8, 2011 (UTC) **Well what happened is that the categories were not changed, the parent categories were removed from every single respective page that were already in a subcategory within its parent categories. The category organization is a lot better now, but as a result, the pages that once had those parent categories such as, for example, Item, will no longer allow you to gain those special edits as they're no longer counted as their respective pages. This is why I suggest in removing the Item, Summoner, and Champion badges from this wiki. 14:14, June 8, 2011 (UTC) **Sorry but content and usability come before badges, always. Also, if the badge system stays, I at least want the category badge removed. Most people don't read the MoS, they just apply categories that they think makes sense just to farm the achievement, without knowing that only the most specialized category of a branch should be applied. 18:23, June 8, 2011 (UTC) ***@Uber - You should read Sam's vote and understand why that wouldn't make sense. ::::@Zel - Who is farming for these achievements anyway? Either way, I do agree that content comes before badges. 23:08, June 8, 2011 (UTC) :::::It's not like they farm it, what I mean is they add categories where they think those should be added, failing to understand how the whole category system works. The reason they add categories in the first place is because they are encouraged by the badges. In reality, cats only have to be added on new pages, the rest are basically fine. So no point in having a badge like that, imho. 00:38, June 9, 2011 (UTC) * I don't really see a point to having badges to begin with. They are Achievement rewards, should they not only be given out when you actually ACHIEVED something? A lot of the badges are just silly, writing blog posts, adding images... I've been creating list pages, after creating 1 page I had 8 badges. If it's that easy to get them for things that don't really contribute to anything but your own ego stroking, might as well remove them. * And on the attracting editors? I for one was not even aware of the badges when I started editing, I still have no clue what this ladder stuff is all about. But if you still think you need badges to get people to make meaningful edits, then make meaningful badges. Deshiba 11:30, June 10, 2011 (UTC) Discussion The voting above has pretty much resulted in a tie, with 5 supports 5 neutrals and 7 opposes. One could close the discussion and leave achievements as they are, but since, in my opinion, there are unsolved issues, I'd like to have a second discussion on *how* to fix achievements, instead of removing them. The current issues I have are the following: # The category badges are completely unachievable for any user that knows what a and . Suggested fix: burn them with fire. # The summoner and item badges are "broken", as they were relying on a category (Category:Summoner and Category:Items, respectively) that shouldn't have been there in the first place. Since wiki content and organization comes before shiny meaningless icons, those categories are not going to be readded. If there is no way to code badges in any other way, these achievements are now impossible to get, so, .. delete them? What would happen in that case for users who already got them ? There are probably others as well, but I'd really like to hear from the community about those first. 13:08, June 15, 2011 (UTC) :There seems to be consensus to remove the custom edit tracks, anyways. 18:05, June 15, 2011 (UTC) ::But it wouldn't be fair to remove them. And why can't we just make Summoner, Champion and Item hidden categories, so they count for achievements. And no new custom tracks. 04:42, June 17, 2011 (UTC) :::This is a wiki, not some game, how is it not fair to remove them. 04:46, June 17, 2011 (UTC) :::Because an hidden category only solve the minor issue (ie, "removing" the category when looking at a page). The major issue that's not solved is that when you access the category directly, you see all the "fake" pages cluttering the actual articles that should be there. Additionally, if you go visit the subcategories, you find those pages again, which only leads to confusion. Again, if you look at the links above, there are situations where this behavior could be tolerated, but in those cases there are valid reasons to do it that way (not friggin' shiny icons!) and it also applies to far less articles. 10:53, June 17, 2011 (UTC) :I believe that categories should stay. As a matter of fact they are the reason we have the few categories we have. And wikis should have its articles properly categorized and organized so through categories, any user could find adequately the article(s) he or she is looking for. On the Summoner and Items pages, I agree they should be removed. 15:06, June 17, 2011 (UTC)